What we have lined up today is a recent interview between Stephanie Taylor, who is the host of what is a relatively new series called Property Gamechangers and our very own Richard Brown, The Property Voice. This is a series that is hosted on Facebook live, where Stephanie interviews, people that have achieved a certain amount of success through property investing. Which firstly, is a great format, but Stephanie is also a great host and interviewer. There are some references coming up that are visual. So if you are curious or just feel like watching the interview, then it will of course be available on The Property Voice's YouTube channel, which will be linked in the show notes. So let's get into it.
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Transcription of the show
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Property Voice Podcast. So we have something a little bit different today. One of those things is of course me. You may have already heard me on the podcast previously, but on the other side of the mic, so to speak. My name is Martin Evans, and I've worked very closely with Richard, helping with some parts of the current projects, the lettings and essay side of things, and just help him with the daily general running of The Property Voice. I'm also an ex-apprentice and one of the current mastermind members.
But enough about me, what we have lined up today is an interview that was recently done between Stephanie Taylor, who is the host of what is a relatively new series called Property Gamechangers. This is a series that is hosted on Facebook live, where Stephanie interviews, people that have achieved a certain amount of success through property investing. Which firstly, I think is a great format, but also Stephanie is also a great host and a great interviewer. There are some references coming up that are visual. So if you are curious or just feel like watching the interview, then it will of course be available on The Property Voice's YouTube channel, which will be linked in the show notes. So let's get into it. Here's the interview, enjoy.
Property Chatter
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to Property Gamechangers Live on the Property Gamechangers, Facebook group. Every week, we are here talking to people who have changed the game in property. So grab a cup of coffee or a nice wine and soda and join us. We are celebrating the power of ethical property in agency to change lives. We're debunking the norm that you need a lot of money to get started in property, and we're inspiring each other to believe bigger, to be bolder and to be game changers for good. And our Game-changer today is the uber-talented and super engaging Richard WJ Brown entrepreneur, property investor, bestselling author and hosts of the Property Voice podcast. Richard has been investing in property for over 15 years including trading and flips, conversions and developments in four countries with over 75 units and assets for over eight and a half million pounds. He's the founder, as I mentioned of the hugely popular Property Voice blog and podcast, and he's a twice bestselling Amazon author and YPN magazine columnist, writer and mentor.
In addition to his property experience, he's a many times entrepreneur in fields as diverse as technology, call centers, eCommerce and commerce with over 30 years professional experience of 18 years in financial services. Richard is married to the lovely Cattie and has three adult children. And now, I found Richard through his podcast. And what I really loved and fell in love with, if I'm allowed to say that, is that Richard has got a really caring approach, but he's also quite analytical and insightful. As well as interviewing people, he really shares his own insights. And he is so humble that I didn't actually realize how much Richard had done until many years into listening to him on the podcast. And I so relate well to his journey in personal growth as he's been on his property journey. And he starts using in proxy like I did later in life, shall we say. So I'm really excited today that Richard has joined here and I think you're going to really love our conversation. So welcome property game changer, Richard Brown.
Wow, Stephanie is a... Hi, how are you doing? What an intro. Thank you so much for that. It's a pleasure to be here by the way. Thank you for inviting me.
Yeah. Well, it's a pleasure to have you here. And if you have questions for Richard while we're talking do put them in the comments or if you just like Richard's story, give us a high or a thumbs up underneath. Richard does have some amazing giveaways later on. But enough of me for now. Richard, first of all where are you? Because that's the story.
Yeah. I don't often say this, but I'm in Brazil. I'm talking to you from Brazil. So the wonders of modern technology, first of all. And I'm guessing you're going to ask me at some point, how on earth do I manage some of what I do remotely with this location, et cetera. So I spend my time between the UK and Brazil predominantly. But yes, I'm currently in Brazil at the moment. You can probably see with some of the background there. It's not one of those screensaver thing, it's real.
I can put you on your end and then that gives people a little bit more of you. But for many people, Richard, there is a moment where they decide to go into property. For some people it's quite a stressful moment for other people, it's more of a gradual approach. Was there a moment like that for you? How did you get started seriously into property.
There was a moment, I call it my Eureka moment, actually. So it's funny, you should say that. And as you also said, I started later in life, which is also true. I was in my mid-forties, was I? No, I was in my early 40s actually. And I was working at the time, I was working in financial services for a tech company. So business and business financial services. So really, I should know everything about money, but I knew it from a business to business perspective, but it didn't really always apply some of the principles personally. But I had a sneaky pint on a summer's evening in a pub beer garden.
And I was doodling. I was on my own, I was doodling on a napkin and I was doodling property portfolio growth and compound interest would you believe? Probably a Friday evening. I'm not sure. So that's how, you asked what I did. It just struck me. I think I plotted out I could be a millionaire with about 14 properties overtime on the investing profits. And it just really struck me, that was what I call my Eureka moment. It changed everything. Ironically, just to kind of... What may lead us into a column, but it was another four years between that realization and actually investing in property. But there was that Eureka moment and I remember it like it was yesterday.
So you were doodling, just going into the doodle a little bit. Were you starting from a set amount of money on this doodle? How were you starting off?
Yeah. Well, it was almost my own little spreadsheet I was noting down on this napkin with columns and yes, I started with essentially one property. So I picked a notional 100,000 pound property. And so what do I need to raise to get into that property? And then really just extrapolating it out over time. And I think I got to about 14 properties in a millionaire status. By the time I got to, probably the bottom of the pipe, as well as the bottom of the doodle.
So you're thinking of somewhere between maybe 25 and 30,000 pounds to start off with and a millionaire within 14 properties and being able to recycle out your money. And how do you put a timeline on it, when you did this doodle? Maybe it wasn't as detailed as all this.
No, unfortunately... Well, a few things happened. So I had the realization, but I had a few blocks, mental blocks and also knowledge gaps. So I didn't really know. And so I didn't have 25 to 35,000 pounds, so that was the first thing. And so I thought you needed 25 to 30,000 pounds for every single property. And obviously if you add that up, that was 14 properties, so help me with the Math. But it was quite a lot of money, which I just did not have. I wasn't in fantastic shape financially at that point in time. And in fact to compound it I'd also recently gone to see an IFA, Financial Advisor. Who told me that to have something like a 30,000 a year pension, bearing in mind my age, I needed to squirrel away, I think it was 800 pounds a month to get something like a 30,000 pension in 25 years time.
So by the time I was about 65-ish. So I didn't have 800 pounds a month either. I didn't have the 25 /30 K starting capital and I didn't have the 800 pounds a month to get going. So that constrained my thinking quite a bit. So that probably played into why there was a four year gap between the realization that it could change my life and actually making a start where it actually has changed my life since. Fortunately I found out the secret after that.
Well, we'll get into the secret, but I really love that you brought all that up because seeing you and listening to your podcast, hearing the much bigger deals you're doing and the developments and so on, which I'm sure we'll come on to, you forget that people started and didn't know it will look this at the start. So you didn't realize that you didn't need 25 to 30 K to get started in poverty. And so tell us about the secrets. What was the realization there?
Okay. So fast forward four years from that moment, so that was, well, I can probably work out, so it must've been 2005 because in 2009, I did my first three property deals in that year. That was my first year proper. I did actually have an investment back in the mid '90s, but let's not go there because there is a bit of pain there or regret at least, because I don't own that property anymore. So 2005 was the Eureka moment and 2009 was the first three properties. And in that first year, I've actually jotted down some notes here somewhere. And my very first property, I had 10,000 pounds. And I think the total investment required was 120,000.
So I had 10 personally out of 120,000 total investment. And that was my first project. It was a bit hairy in many ways, probably bit off a little bit more than I could chew in fairness. And then there was two other projects that quickly followed where there was limited amount of money. One was literally 1500 pounds fee. It was 100% financing and there was another one which was about 10K, and I think the investment in that was about 110K. So all in all, I think for just over 20,000, it was three properties in that first year. And just to quantify, I think the value of those properties was around about half a million-ish.
And so when I look at the four year delay, I always say that four year delay cost me two million. So it's the cost of delaying, that's the cost of delaying. So I could have been sat here four years ago and be in the position I am in today, had I started back then. And what I didn't know, the secret is I didn't need all of that money myself. That is the secret. So the principle of using leverage, the principle of using other people's money to grow was the secret. And that's the foundation of a lot of what happened. But it's not the only foundation or the only secret as it were, but it was certainly a big part of it.
And I just want to dwell on this a little bit longer. So in many, many people, perhaps not even the people who are even aware to be watching something like this or just needs something like this would be thinking, "Yes, I'd love to get started in property. I'm a bit behind where I wanted to be by this period in time." And they have the mindset that you had. How did you go from that mindset to three properties in three years worth half a million pounds?
You make a really good point actually... Sorry?
Three properties in a year, sorry. I just-
Yeah. No, no, it's fine. Light's gone off for some reason, I don't know why. But you make a really good point because it's multi-leveled. I think the first thing is mindset, is belief. So if you start believing it's possible you can actually attract things into your life, frankly. I know it sounds a bit woo-woo and a bit out there, but that's something that... The power of our subconscious, the power of the universe, frankly, I know it sounds weird, but it works. So that was one thing. The second thing is, I didn't know what I didn't know, so there was a knowledge gap. And so in that four years, I started teaching myself. I started learning and being educated. It was a bit hairy around then, but about 2005, 2006 the market was going crazy. There was all sorts of crazy things happening, and there was lots of dodgy sorts of advice and schemes around. You had to pick your way through.
But essentially I got the knowledge. The belief and the knowledge were two major things. I think they came together to enable that to happen. And then I think it's finding your flow, finding your feet. So for me, what I call a value adding investor. So people do things in different ways, for me I like to quote Warren Buffett a lot. I don't liken myself to him in many, many ways, but I really like him and his principles. He's a value investor. And I think I'm a value adding investor. So always looking to create value and create opportunities out of things and add value and maybe recycle.
And so that became my core, really adding value and recycling my cash. Because I didn't have a lot of it, frankly. So I had to make it work really hard for me, the cash that I did have. But unlike perhaps you, I know that you've done things like rent-to-rent certainly to get started. I didn't follow that line. I followed more of a small developer type of root. And frankly, I worked a little bit less probably, I don't know. But I think, do better work at the front end and then it pays you repeatedly. I think that was the big difference.
You can definitely say that you work a little less while you're sitting in Brazil, let's face it Richards. We've had a comment from Richard Parker, who says, "Impressive journey, Richard. What's one thing, if there is one, that you would do differently if you were starting out again?"
Thanks Richard for the question. There's more than one thing. There's actually more than one thing. So it's like picking which one, I'd definitely start sooner. That's the easiest one. I told you, it costs me two million quid to sit around for four years. Without a shadow of a doubt, I would have started sooner. And I think probably the other thing is to work on mindset, because I had some blocks that existed, belief blocks. And so to get them out of the way. You can do that yourself through personal growth and development, but you can also bring in other people around you who can raise you up. So they're probably the biggest things, work on mindset and start as soon as you possibly can. And you make some mistakes, but guess what? In property times, it's a great healer. It's very forgiving. So there's always a price to our education by the way. Whether we pay for it in terms of courses and training and things like that, or experience.
Brilliant. Thanks, Richard. And we've also had a colleague from Helix saying, "It's a great video." So let's move on, Richard. So you got started, it's 2009, you bought three properties for 120 grand that are worth 500,000 hands. And tell us, where you went from those three to where you are now. That's a big question
I had about 20 grand, well 120 grand. So the-
120 grand?
Yeah, I had 20 grand, for the three properties more or less. So, I hustled quite a bit. And I scale through the BRR strategy, Buy, Refurbish, Refinance strategy. It was predominantly with a single unit properties to begin with. And then I realized that I could scale up a little bit, as a lot of people do. So I moved into HMS, at some point and I think roundabout 2012, I had a foundation of income, it's about 3000 a month, something of that order. And I put my hand up for voluntary redundancy at work. So I was still working in those first three years and what I was doing, I was doing on the side. It was a side hustle, property investing. My poor old bosses didn't know that I was taking a few calls now and again, but it wasn't too much, I promise you. It wasn't abusing my time too much. And I gave back in different ways. Trust me.
So yeah, I scaled up. Can't remember the exact number of properties in that three year period, but it was around about 3000 or so 3,500 in income that I had. And yeah, I put my hand up for redundancy in 2012. I got a small payoff, not a really big one. Because putting your hand up, you don't get the best payoff. And that obviously standout, enabled me to go again. And I replaced the six figure income after the first year, pretty much. It was 11 months. 11 months after going full time in property, which was 2012.
And one thing I want to call out there is, you just mentioned the six figure incomes. And previous to that, you said actually you weren't in a great place financially. So some people think, the higher the incomes, the better place you're going to be in. But that's not always the case. And actually even with a low income or lower income, you can save, invest, and become a millionaire or whatever is your goal. So I just want to just highlight that. We've had another question from Sergio who said, "Hi, Richard, congratulations on your amazing journey. What made you choosing property as the vehicle to freedom as opposed to other investments?
Another really good question. Thanks Sergio for that. I think property has always got what I call an intrinsic value. So people will always need to live somewhere and even if there's a property crash, those headlines that you see and we've seen a few by the way in recent times, certainly whilst I've been operating, a property crash is maybe 15% reduction in pricing, but that still leaves 85%. And if it's really bad, it's maybe 20% crash or 25 crash. But it still leaves 75% or more value in that asset. Which, if you look at stock market right now, if you just look at companies that are closing, a stock market crash can often mean companies going bust and being worth zero.
So I think stock market is the other classic asset class that people tend to invest in, but a lot of companies can literally go to zero and I just didn't think property would go to zero. It might happen, but I don't think it will. I'm not a fortune teller. So stock market was another one of those asset classes that I looked into, stocks and shares investing. And I think the other really big difference with property is the ability to leverage.
So you don't need all of the money to acquire the asset yourself. There's this beautiful thing called buy-to-let mortgages or other types of financing where a lender will effectively put in the lion's share of the investment. And if we get into things like bridging finance and development finance and other forms of more complex creative financing strategies, you can put in surprisingly low amounts. There's a double-edged sword with leverage, obviously it can magnify your profits. They can also magnify your losses too, so you need to be cautious. And so I always try and protect the downside because of the potential risks, but that was the main reason why I chose property above say other assets.
Richard there's so much to talk about with you and I really do want to get into the journey onto where you've gotten to, but just before we do, I do want to ask again, because I don't think we've explicitly touched on it. So you've had, if I've got this correct now, 20,000 pounds of your own money, the values that you needed for the three property or the amount you needed for three properties. Is that 120,000?
I think I mixed a couple of examples for you. So you should probably be confused, I apologies for that. So my very first property, I needed 10,000 pounds of my own money and that was my cash. Personal cash from a bonus actually at work. And it was the total investment, so the purchase price is 75,000 and there were other costs, a very big refurb', which took it up to 120,000. So my 10 on a total investment of 120,000 and that property was worth 150 actually, once it was fully renovated. So that was the first property.
The second property was in Portugal and I needed 1500 pounds as a fee. But I got 100% bank financing on the property and it was 180,000 euros. So I basically got 180,000 Euro property for 1500 pounds. And today that's worth 370,000 euros. And then the third one I mentioned was roughly 10,000 of my own cash. There was a developer who'd completed a development and had some remaining units and they wanted to get off site. I don't recommend off plan, but completed development was a different story.
And so they wanted to get off site. So they were offering some pretty big discounts to move some of the last units. And they were prepared to do short term financing on it as well. So I've got 100% financing. The 10K I spent in that, was essentially fees. And then I sold that property for 130,000 and what I did there is I did a flip. I sold it to the sitting tenant, because it was pre-tenanted. And I used the profit from that to subsidize one of my next deals. So I don't know if that's clarified a bit more for you. It's probably about 21,500 of investment in that first year.
So what I was trying to get to is there's obviously a big gap or there was a big gap between what was required, what you had. And I was just interested to give people ideas about how you bridge that gap as a beginner. And in some cases it was, well, days gone by now. You could get 100% financing from the banks but that's not mainly or not straightforwardly available in the same way now. So move us on from there about-
Let me say what is available now. Because one thing I didn't stress is, on one of those properties, I had a friend's and family loans. So if you've got people who love you, they'll probably give you better terms. So I was able to, on that first property I mentioned, the one I said I had 10,000 of my own money. I actually had 50,000 pounds coming in from friends and family to help me get going in that. So be nice to your friends and family because they can help you get started into this business. But be careful with their money too.
Yes. And it's surprising isn't.... I don't know if you've found this, it's surprising who actually starts offering you money and hoisting money upon you, once you start getting into property and they're impressed by what you're achieving. So you started off in 2009, as we said, tell us a little bit more about what's happened since then.
Yeah. So I mentioned, I had a cookie cutter type of model, buy, refurbish, refinance, perhaps some of the units I was converting were single let. And then I moved to HMOs and a couple of their service departments as well. And that took me probably in a fairly consistently, instead of a roundabout 2017, 2018. And I think I probably got to a roundabout 25 units, something like that, roundabout that number by about 2018, something. And then things took off. And so since, roundabout 2018, I've scaled to about 75 units and that's with larger multiple developments. That was another aha moment. That was another realization, that I had my own blocks, my own glass ceiling, if you like. And I was quite happy puddling along, doing ones and smaller HMOs.
And then suddenly, I realized that actually just doing a larger project between four and 12 units as a conversion in particular, that's what I moved into commercial conversions. It didn't take that much more work for sure, it took more money. You needed a different team to execute, but essentially you could, if you invested a similar amount of time, some of the principles I'd already learned, I could apply to that. And so I started scaling and doing larger projects and that's where the growth came, really the explosive growth. So the curve on it went up quite a bit from 2018. So approximately another 50 units have been added in that approximate two year period.
That is really interesting, isn't it? Because from 2009 to 2018 equal to 25 units, and then you've massively gone up again within two years because, as you said, everything you've learned has taken you to that place. But tell us a little bit about the mindset of going from your smaller units, small developments, you feel quite happy with them, you know how to do them, to do these multiple units.
Yeah. It's really interesting, because I think you go in stages and levels as you go through the journey. So we always talk about fix and flex. So you fix on a strategy or route or a direction and goals, and then you get there. I liken it to climbing a mountain. So there's a peak up here, and you might not even see the peak because it's covered in clouds, for example. You might be able to see the peak, but it looks so massive to scale. But if you can get to the first level, then you've got a different perspective. And as you can see another level, and then you can just move up this mountain. So I think that was what was happening with, is I was developing greater belief as I was getting more experienced.
And then, the block, it was a money block in particular. Because I didn't really understand about development finance in particular. So a lot of the projects that I was working on, the refurb element was quite small relative to the overall value of the project. Whereas on something like a conversion project, it actually flips around the other way. So an example is one of the latest projects I've been working on, I'm looking at a crypt sheet here. I paid 250,000 for a fairly rundown former office warehouse type of unit and the development cost on that was 730,000 in total, including the purchase price. So it was double again to develop it out.
But that's got a GDV, a Gross Development Value of a million and I've sold it. I didn't intend to sell it, but I decided to, and can talk about that later. My principle strategy is not to sell but strategically I will sell. I got a good offer, so I agreed to sell that one. But I've also retained part of the plot for myself. So there's a bit of value of retaining that as well. So I think it was belief. I think it was know how. But you don't just walk into development finance either. So you need a track record, there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation with what I call the institutional lenders. Because they won't just, usually this is, they usually won't give you development, finance, unless you can prove that you've done a project like, they would lend it upon you. But how can you do the project if you haven't got the money?
So it's a difficult one. So I bridged the gap between getting the institutional development finance and doing smaller projects with private financing. And all that meant was, I just needed to change the conversation. All I needed is to change my mindset, but then I needed to change the conversation and I've got three or four really good private investors that have been with me now for a few years. And they've rolled over on a couple of different projects their funds. They're fantastic people, genuine friends I would say they are.
And so that's changed the world for me, having them around me. By the way, when you talked earlier about, isn't it interesting who comes and offers you money and things like that? I didn't actually get a lot of that, even though I talked about having friends and family offering money to begin with, it took about five years before I could break through about 250,000 the funds raised, but now I've raised over five million in the second half of that 10 year cycle. I know I'm going on a bit, shut me out if you need to. The big part of it was belief. Then there was this know-how. And here's the thing, the way you frame problems or issues in your mind is a big deal. So I used to say things like, "I can't do that." You know already Stephanie where going, because you're putting a limiting belief on yourself with that statement.
But it was like, "I can't do that. I can do ones and twos. I can do a little HMO. I can't do a commercial conversion. I can't do it. I haven't got the money." And then I re-frame that, as how can I do that? And so once you then pose it as a problem, as a question, your mind starts working. Literally, I woke up in the middle of night with answers. And people were coming into my life with solutions and it was just amazing. It's just amazing. And it's quite a journey.
And like I say, you're just moving up this mountain. Scaling as you go. But you have to become something to get to the top and you have to grow into that. Because I do believe we're not given stewardship or custodianship of high value things, unless we've got the responsibility to be able to take care of them properly. So we have to grow into that capability if you like. And it takes some time, unfortunately. There probably are ways to hack it and fast track it. It took me a little while before I realized, so maybe people can learn and do it faster than I did by just listening to what I did and doing a little bit sooner.
Yeah. Well, a couple of things, I know from listening to your podcast, for example, that you're in groups now with people who are doing very similar and in some cases, much bigger things and that really helped. And I also know that you have your own mentorship groups where you've had a series on fairly recently where the people in your mentorship groups have been talking about and that's been so interesting and instructive because they're getting to that place in the mountain and you're also moving to a different place on the mountain. So do you want to tell us a little bit about maybe first of all, the mentorship that you have sought out and then perhaps you could go on to the mentorship that you're offering.
Yeah, sure. Well, the first thing is we can be our own mentor. And it's an interesting one and my wife, who you met earlier briefly, I think, I'm not sure if you saw her but you certainly probably heard her. She always says, "Ask good questions." And we can ask ourselves good questions. And if we've got an open mind to what the response is, rather than being defensive or whatever, judgemental, close-minded, we can get answers. So we can be our own mentor, but equally we only know what we know. So I think it's great to get an external input. So in my own particular case, I got a couple of really good proxy buddies as they call them. I would say they are peers, similar level as me, no offense to anyone who is in that space. And we bounce things off each other and we can be really open and we're very insightful. You just say, "This is the problem." And they go, "Well, have you tried that?" "No." "Okay, fine. Just get on with that."
It's just the idea of being able to bounce off someone. So that was one level. Then another level is, I'm a member of a mastermind group. It's actually a US one. And I was seeking out mentorship myself. Because I think we're all on this mountain, to keep my mountain analogy going. And if you can imagine the rope, well, someone's pulling someone else up a mountain, but that person will lose their energy and will lose their drive and focus if there's no one else pulling them up the mountain. So I need to look up and be pulled up the mountain as well. So I'm looking up to people who can challenge and stretch me and give me something to aspire to. So I'm doing that with my own group. And of course, I'm doing something similar.
I don't mean it to sound in a way that is any way condescending. Because I don't mean it that way. We're just at different stages of this journey. So I'm actually helping people up the mountain. And of course you've got people on a similar level supporting one another because things can get tough. And so it's great to have that little bit of support and accountability alongside you as well. So there's a couple of different levels there above, below, and then on the same level for a full 360 perspective, if you like.
That is so powerful. And I really love that you brought up that you can be your own mentor. Because I think that's one of the things that we're, as humans on default setting quite bad at. But when you bring some consciousness to it, it's really easy to get good at being your own mentor as well. And it adds a new dimension. There's so much more, I want to go in. We have had another question, so Ashma has asked a very good question, which is excellent. "How did you manage to find three deals while working full time and addition one was in Portugal in a year? Any tips and was it through networking?"
I guess when you put it like that. Well, I think to be fair, in the early stages of my investing journey, if you want to use that phrase, I used third parties deal sources and brokers predominantly to find me deals. Because time was precious, time is a premium. I was working full time. I had a high powered job in a way, it was targeting and I had to dedicate a lot of time to it. I didn't have a lot of free time. So I outsourced, if you like the deal finding role to third parties and I paid them fees. So that's how I found my first deal. So the Portugal one was through an IFA. I'm trying to think now, there were deal sources for the other two. So I pay fees, and what's the value of your time? So I worked out that, I think I paid on average.
Well, I paid 1,500 for the Portugal IFA deal. And I think I paid roundabout 3000 pounds each, something of that order for the other two. So what's the value of my time. So it could take an awful lot of time. And as I was working, I thought it was better to not lose my job and actually pay someone else to find them. As time has gone by, to pick up the secondary question about networking, referrals and networking has played a much bigger part in how I find opportunities. And in fact, I don't think I've paid a sourcing fee now for a number of years. So things have come to me through referral, through networking. There's probably... And self-sourcing. So I've developed a few systems that I would use myself, but people working with me now who helped me to do that. So it's a bit of an internal function.
And I'm guessing that with the Property Voice podcast, perhaps is that one way that you've grown your network and done deals as well, through your podcast?
Yeah, so I've always had a passion for sharing knowledge. So it started really, there were two reasons why I started. One was, so I didn't forget things that I was learning. It was a great place to store centrally information so I wouldn't forget it, because sometimes my memory gets a little ropey. And then the second reason is I have this teaching mentoring type of spirit in me and that's never going to go. It's probably my purpose actually, it's to share that knowledge. And then before I knew it, people starting to connect with me and ask me questions and seek me out in one way or another. So I found I was answering forum posts, people writing emails and I was giving hints and tips. And of course I knew less when I started, "I found this out, maybe this will help you." But as time has gone on, of course I've learned quite a lot through my own experience and through the knowledge. And then it's become a bit of an authority in some senses. Lots of people have started a podcast and they're not still doing a podcast.
So it's been over five years. I looked it up before we started talking and it was the 3rd of April 2015. It was my very first podcast episode. So it's over five years now. So you've got this library bank, you are literally talking about your own values, who you are as a person, every single week for five and a half years. So you're putting yourself out there and then that attracts people to you of all types. So I've attracted investment, I've attracted deals, I've attracted suppliers, partners not life partners, but business partners as a result of having the podcasts and also the books that I've written. Putting good content out can attract people into your inner circle, let's say that.
Yeah. Ashma was just thanking you for your answer there and Santi just saying, "Hello." Let's move on actually. Because there's so much to cover with you, Richard. I'm not sure we'll get through it all, but let's certainly talk about the books. So can you talk to us more about your Property Investor Toolkit book?
This one?
Yes. Funny you should have that there. Quite a coincidence.
Yeah. Well, we might come back to that later. So 2015 was a big year for me because obviously I've just mentioned that we launched the podcast in 2015. And later that year I released that book. As you can see it's not a very big book. It's called toolkit for a reason. And I have to say, I always say it took me 30 years to write that book. Because, I don't know if you can hear that there's some noise in the background, but hopefully it's not disturbing you. But I say it took me 30 years because I always wanted to write a book. But, a bit like saying, if you don't have clarity, it doesn't get done. So I wanted to write a book, but I didn't know what about, so had all sorts of ideas, which probably I won't share with you now. But one was version of a Haynes Manual for parenting, I haven't written that book yet.
So I just started to assemble, like a natural flow of starting out in property. What are the things you need to look out for? What are the foundational points and what are the things that can help you to avoid some of the pitfalls? And then it just turned into a book and I locked myself away for a long weekend. Well, there were a couple of long stints because I tend to write in batches. So there were a couple of events where I read that book and launched it in 2015. And it's done pretty well. It's a toolkit, as I mentioned, it's got lots of resources that are linked to it. So I tried to do something a little bit different, so it's got a lot of external resources and if people write in, they get some bonuses like spreadsheets and things like that checklist. So I wanted to write a book which would help someone starting out to avoid some of the pitfalls. One is, don't wait for years and things like that.
And Already the questions that we're getting today on the podcast, all the foundations for it will be in that Property Investor Toolkit. And I know you've got another book Richard. Talk to us about what's in your second book.
#PropTech. So this is really interesting because I spent a year of my life, right about 2017, I think it was. Delving into, it was very self-indulgent in a way, the idea of PropTech. Now I've been told, because we did a whole podcast series on it. I've been told it was a bit heavy. Listen to the feedback, but I was immersed into it. I was really fascinated by the idea of PropTech, property and technology coming together. That was the principle of it.
And I do believe it's the future. But maybe the future isn't quite honest just yet. And maybe it's an idea ahead of its time. So if you're interested in potentially looking at trends, if you're looking at maybe how technology will change property for all of us and to be prepared for that, or even to capitalize on that, then #PropTech is the book for you. But I think it's very self-indulgent. I just was fascinated by talking to some of these founders of tech companies, PropTech companies and learning all about blockchain and the sharing economy and artificial intelligence and all this stuff.
So it was something of a passion project. And then I was invited to speak on the topic and I was like, "I'm not an expert. I'm really not an expert on PropTech." So I felt a little bit embarrassed about being asked to speak. So I'm still a student of PropTech. So I think property strategy, how to structure deals and things like that is really my forte, my domain, if you like. And project was this passion project, I got really interested in and a heart for, so that's that one. But it's there if you'd like to read up about the trends that are coming, some of which are upon us already.
Fabulous. Thanks for sharing that. So I know the Property Investor Toolkit, Matthew has commented that, "The Property Investor Toolkit is still one of the very best property books, I highly recommend it to all." Say, thanks for you, Matthew. And I would obviously expect that that would be the case. So let's go back to you. We have had a couple more questions, which I'm going to try and squeeze them, but let's get back to your story. Tell us about some of the exciting bigger deals that you've now been doing. Give us some examples of maybe some high level understanding.
Yeah. So I gave one a little bit just now, which was the commercial conversion converged into 11 units. It's a pay 250 for it. I've sold it. I've just sold it for a million. And I carved out a piece of... It's just a warehouse. It's a strip on a warehouse. But if I tell you this warehouse is next to a row of terrace houses, and if you imagine two terraces being the size of the warehouse, you can probably see where I'm going. Now, if I don't get planning to put two terraces on it, I've got a warehouse, so I'll retain that. So I didn't intend to sell that. That was an interesting thing. I've been trying to build my portfolio because I've got a big vision. So my vision now is not just for me anymore. It goes beyond me. So why I'm pushing on instead of putting my feet up is because I do have this big vision.
Anyway, I digressed, because you asked me about the projects. I've got a care home in Doncaster, which will be five units, mix of conversion and you build this three townhouses and two new bungalows on that particular project. I've got a four unit, sorry, I paid, these are round figures because I haven't prepared all of these numbers. I pay, again about 250 for that. It's going to cost me 300 to do the conversion into the townhouses. And then the bungalows will be freed, effectively that's what will happen with that particular one. So the bungalows are probably worth about 200,000 each. So there'll be a cost actually attached to that. So it's not quite 400,000 profit. It's a little bit less than that. I don't want to mislead people. I've got a new build site down in Stoke, which is for new builds bought it with preexisting planning. I've managed to increase the planning from three beds to four beds. So get a little bit extra out of it there, a couple of listed buildings. Can you see my face in listed buildings? To try not to do too many listed buildings.
Got an unlisted building project in Oswestry, which is a formal commercial building, which I paid 170,000 for it, I think it was. And I'm not going to sell that one for 470, having spent about 150 on converting it, something of that order. So that gives you a bit of a flavor. You can see that they're in the four to 12 unit mark, I was paying approximately 180 to 250 mainly for those sites. I was probably spending, depending on the nature of works, up to half a million let's say in terms of development and then the gross development values of those probably Doncaster was a million. The conversion I first mentioned was a million, the Oswestry one's about half a million. So it's in the half a million to a million range at the moment. And guess what? That's a great glass ceiling, isn't it?
So I pitched myself in that level. Now, could I go and break through the glass ceiling and go above that? I had a realization earlier this year, somebody offered me a project where I would have to spend three million to acquire the property. And guess what I said to myself? Stephanie, guess what I said to myself? I said, "I can't do that." And then I caught myself, that's the thing. So when you catch yourself, so I've caught myself, "Wait, hang on a minute. No, no, no. How can I do that?" So I re-framed it, how can I do that? And then you never guess what, within a couple of days, there were a couple of people who came into my world who could help me do that deal. As it happened, it fell apart because the person who brought me the deal wasn't direct to the vendor and they didn't really have the clout that they were saying they did have. So it fell apart for that reason, but it really changed my thinking that I could move up to another level again.
There was a slight difference, I wasn't doing too much development. That was more of a paper, that was more of an asset split type. Buying a block, converting it into single free holds and then selling the units off piecemeal. So there was less development risk in that particular one. So I would say that as you scale, you stretch out your comfort zone. You need different skillsets. And so you just manage that risk as you grow. It can be growing pains. So when I was doing the 3,000,000 one, or wanted to do the 3,000,00 one, I de-risked it by not making the development side of it as big. And it was much more of a title split planning and paper-based exercise to reduce the actual development risk that I might have had on a smaller project.
And I'm sure that people listening will be getting the feeling, perhaps you're already a property investor. You've done lots of things that we've talked about before single lets, HMOs. And maybe you're wanting to go up a set, but with some expertise and perhaps that would be or would that be the right person to join one of your groups? Richard, do you help people like that who wants to do what you're doing?
Very much. So in fact, I've got a real heart for it. I call myself a bit of a turnaround guy. And I love to see transition in people, in other people. It just really lights me up when I see that light bulb go on in their eyes, not just that they can do something, but actually when they do it. That really gives me a kick. And so I carve out a lot of time in my diary to support people. So we're just about to launch TPVA5. It's very catchy, isn't it? The Principal's Apprentice Number five. So it'd be the fifth iteration. And that was launching in September. That's full. Depending on some final decisions between four and six people who will join me in that. And I would say that pretty much every single one of those people have got some turnaround or they've got a crossroads, they've reached a crossroads.
And it's like, "Should I go this way? Should I go that way?" And part of my role is to facilitate that change with them and help them to make that move. And I've done it myself obviously more than once. Because we haven't even spoken about the fact that my previous career before property. I've taught myself a few different industries. I've taught myself different property strategies. Hopefully, I've got something to give. And so hopefully those people have been for that program can attest to that. But yeah, I love it. As you can probably tell from the way I'm talking.
Yeah. Actually on your podcast, you can hear people talking about what they're doing and what their blocks have been and how they've moved forward, and all they're discussing that with you. Before we close, I'll just take one more question and then we can have a little bit to talk about your big vision that you mentioned earlier. But Howard has asked a question, which might be on many people's lips at the moment, how has Covid effected your investing and borrowing?
This is really interesting. I'll tell you why, because... As I mentioned earlier that I actually had my first investment in the mid '90s. So dates me a little bit, doesn't it? But the point is that I've been through a number of cycles, economic cycles and property cycles. And guess what? We just go through cycles. There is change. Now we've got Covid, previously we had the global financial crisis, we had Brexit in between, we'll have Brexit again, as reality kicks in. We've had all sorts of economic shocks, the tech bubble, lots of different things have happened. And so what I'm really trying to say is, Covid is just another one of those black Swan events. And the longer we have been in this business, the more we get used to understanding that these black Swan events, these unpredictable changes are in fact predictable. So Covid is another one. I didn't see it coming, specifically. But what I would say is this, I try and talk about bulletproofing our portfolio and protecting the downside.
So I've got a few things in place which help in that respect. So not over leveraging, for example, getting fixed rate mortgages, having a contingency fund. They're just some examples. It's not to say that I wasn't affected, I was badly affected. I had the four elements to my property. There's investing, the short term rentals, there is developments and there is investor services effectively, like the mentoring. And three out of those four suffered, services combination fell off a cliff overnight, developments were halted and I had extra voids in my rental portfolio all at once. So it was fantastic. But you try and be prepared for these things, that's the first thing. Second thing is, you take action to try and mitigate the damage.
So we repurposed the short term accommodation. I put aside different funding mechanisms for the developments and we worked on non onsite activities. Like for example, planning as far as the portfolio is concerned, we tried to minimize voids as much as we possibly could. So you put action in place. You don't bury your head in the sand. From a borrowing point of view, I think things halted for a period of time. I'll give you an example. I'm currently refinancing some of my US properties and I started that over three months ago and I still haven't got to the end of the refinancing. Probably should have just parked it and come back in again. Because lenders stopped lending, but now they're lending again. So it was temporary, is my point.
So I think you need to put in some contingencies, you need to be not very head in the sand be very, very proactive and the people who've come out best here have either pivoted to coin a phrase or taken defensive measures. For example, service accommodation, one of my units, just to give us very specific example. I was averaging about 17, 18,000 a year in gross rent. And I just put it out there at about 650 a month, just to get it rented for a short period of time. So it took a hit in terms of the gross revenue, but my phrase is, "Live to fight another day. If we protect the downside, we will live to fight another day."
And Covid is one of those events that we just need to survive from, if we're an existing investor. But equally we can thrive. So the second part of that equation is I'm looking at opportunities. So that 3 million opportunity I talked about earlier came back in the last few months. So I'm looking for opportunities to have adversity as well as protecting the downside as well. So yes, it affected me and affected me quite sharply for a period of time, but effectively and opportunistically looking for a way out by planning a way through it. So thanks for that question. It's a very good one.
It's that problem solving again. Now, Richard, an exciting thing for listeners of yours is that you have a summit giveaways to tell us about. Say talk to us about that and how people can get involved.
Sure. Okay. We've talked about my books. Thank you for mentioning those. So what I want you to do, the first thing is with my books. I want to give away five books of your choice now, but there's a twist. I don't want to give it to you as an individual, if you're watching and you're listening to this. I want you to nominate someone to receive it. So don't try the, "I'll just give it to my... It's for me really type of trick."This is an act of paying it forward, so I'm paying it forward by giving it to you, but you're paying it forward by nominating someone to receive it.
So just pick one of the two books either the Toolkit book or PropTech book and just drop me a line, after you've send it to admin at the propertyvoice.net and nominate who you'd like to get that book. I'll send it to them free of charge. Whichever book it is. That's the first gift. The second gift is for you, if you are looking at this guy and how can I follow more and get more. On a columnist for YPN magazine, I've forgotten how many years now? It's about three, I think.
So I've got a reasonable back catalog. Now YPN magazine, your proxy network is subscription. So you can subscribe to the magazine and just read the articles, but guess what? I give away all of my articles for free. All you need to do is write to that same email address, thanks for posting it there, Stephanie and ask to get the YPN magazines and you will get the entire back catalog. There's quite a lot of content, obviously. So that's all free. And that's for you if you'd like to see some of my ramblings over the last few years. And then the third thing, this is an experiment. I don't know how this is going to go.
We talked about it just quickly before we started, but I do something called the apprentice program, The Property Voice Apprentice Program. And that's what you asked me about. And that's what four to six people are going to start in September, but I've just decided that I've got heart for younger people who are starting out. I've got children of this age, I'm about to talk about 18 to 25 who want to make a start. My nephew actually is one of these people and he says, "What should I do? What should I do?" And I'm like, "Well read that book. That's a good idea. And watch this podcast. I've not watched it, but watch this video and listen to this podcast." But if there's maybe three or four people who in the age group, 18 to 25, you've got no experience. So you don't remember what to do, but you really want to get involved in property. I'm offering to mentor or coach you as a group over the next few weeks.
So just drop me a line, if that's you. We'll have a conversation and we'll try and put something together. I don't know what the format is going to look like. Will probably be a few group calls and maybe some one-to-ones and I'm not going to charge for that. I just want to help people. So please respect that I'm not really looking to avoid a charge for mentoring for people who perhaps already doing really well, these people who just want to start and make that. Because I said earlier about start as soon as you can. So if you imagine, if you're 18 years old and you did what I did when I was 40 something , so I'd be 30 years old and retired. So that would that would give me a lot of inspiration to perhaps work with some young people that way. There we go. Those are my gifts.
That's fantastic. So the young apprentice is for 18-25? Did you say-
18 to 25 year olds, Yeah.
And everyone whether they are wanting a free gift to nominate a friend or whether they're thinking of themselves or someone they know for the young apprentice, it's happening at the propertyvoice.net. And a great way to get started. If you want more Richard is obviously the proxy voice podcast. So Richard, we have covered a lot today and we only just barely skimmed across the surface of what you've been doing in life generally, and particularly in the last 15 years in property. And we've gleaned just from your current location and you're looking very relaxed there, as you said, it's with a cool drink in Brazil. What's really changed the game in your life and your family's life through becoming a property investor?
What's changed again or what changes have I seen?
I probably confused it. When I thought of being a game changer, first of all, it changes things for you and your family first. And then it changes things more widely. But in the first instance, I'm just asking you about you and your family.
Yeah. This is hard for me sometimes to talk about because I try and be humble. But essentially, let's just say here's what our life will look like. It's three homes in three locations. My wife is Brazilian, as I mentioned, and I'm British, so there's going to be bases there. And then the third one, we need to relocate one of our properties to make this one happen. So this one is still a work in progress, is a home in the mountains where we can ski and also do summer sports. My wife's on her last assignment, from a work point of view. We're working towards her finishing that in a few years' time. And then we're going to flip between those three locations. So we can flip between two at the moment. And we'll flip between the third when that happens, if not four, right about, as times go, and have this international lifestyle, if you like. And we already traveled to major sporting events like the Olympics. We were going to Tokyo this year, but unfortunately the seats being canceled.
So World Cups and Olympics, that's something we love to attend. We love to ski badly. So that's the lifestyle that we have. We're not too ostentatious, so they're not mansions or anything that we're talking about. They're nice spaces for us. And it's also helped us to support our, our girls, our daughters, we've got three daughters. And it's funny because I think they're all living a vocational or almost an activist type of life which is code for, they will be rich.
So we are funding their education by funding their passion projects as a result of what we've been able to achieve. So that was the helping other people and building a legacy and passing it on. But we could literally stop right now. We don't need to do anymore. In fact, somebody asked me this question the other day, "Why are you carrying on? Why are you putting yourself through all this?" And that's when it comes to the big vision. I mentioned, it took me 30 years to write a book. Well for a number of years now, probably a couple of decades, I've had this burning desire to have this foundation. I've forgotten about it a few times and let it drift, but it won't leave me alone. It's a good test of whether it's your passion, it was when it won't leave you alone.
And so, I want to have this foundation. Our family's going to be well provided for, but what we're doing now is to grow our asset base so that it can outlive us and it can provide foundation. And we really want to help people from disadvantaged backgrounds, people in developing countries, people don't have opportunity. We're privileged. We do know that we're privileged and we're blessed. So we want to pass on some of that privilege and that blessing to other people. So I'm gunning for quite a significant foundation fund which will be asset-backed, which will hopefully live on for a few generations even, after I've passed this earth. So that's what keeps me going. That's why I do what I do. And keep growing and keep sometimes pushing through the pain barrier because it can be.
It can be it just touches my heart speaking to you Richard even listening to you on the podcast. But I think today has been really special for me because we've found out so much more about you and your story. And I think when you've been talking about that, you do say sometimes you're humble, as I said to the point where your light doesn't always shine and you've more recently started talking more about what you do. But it's hugely impressive but it's also inspirational. And I like the way that you are also clearly setting a road map for others who want to do what you've done. And I love the way you're setting up a foundation to help others who may not be able to come into this world at all. Richard is saying, "Great life, a very professional show. And thank you, Richard." There were a few other questions but sadly we have run out of time. So Richard, is there anything else you would like to share that you feel that we've not touched on today that you would like to leave people with?
Well, maybe two things. The first thing is to you actually, Stephanie. So thank you so much. I liked at the opportunity to accept your invitation, I told you before we came on air, but I want to say while we're on air as well. And because I really like what you're doing here, it's groundbreaking and hopefully I've promoted the event as well amongst my community. So maybe you've got a new audience and maybe I've got the opportunity with your audience.
So thank you. And I love the way you go about things. And obviously with Nikki and what you're doing there it's fantastic what you are doing. So just hats off to you, well done. I hope you go from strength to strength, but I think the other thing is just to really finish on this point of a reinforcement in a way, is that this old dog that's me, made a transition and a turnaround, made a lot of mistakes. Didn't have a lot to begin with and somehow has done okay. So I just want to encourage people to take control, take ownership, and take responsibility for their financial futures. Property is a great way to do that. Don't hesitate. Get the support you need. I'm not talking about necessarily mentoring.
The first thing I say to people is you don't need to spend a lot of money, you can mentor yourself. You can do some heavy training and just reach out to me and I'll tell you how you can do that. No problem. But just don't delay. Don't waste that four years like I did, just get yourself out there. There's lots of ways of making a go of things in this business. You don't have to do exactly as I did, but there's a minimum of 40 ways to profit through property. Because I wrote the article on that one. So yeah, just don't delay. Just put yourself out there and go for it and give back as you go. That would probably be my parting comment. Give back as you go. Because there's so much reciprocity, so much good feeling and there's so many people in need as well. So just give along the way, it'd be a good thing to do.
And as we leave you all today I just caught one of the comments coming in. One of the many comments coming in, Martin's saying "Great interview." Cordiya is saying, "Thank you Richard, so many gems. #appreciated." And I just want to add my appreciation on top of that and say, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing so many incredible inspirational and also practical steps stories. For now, it's goodbye from Richard Brown. It's goodbye from me. We'll see you soon.
Well that about wraps it up. What a great interview. I really enjoy listening to people's success stories of how they started out and how they build it up to where they are now. At risk of being told off by Richard, as I know he likes to keep his podcasts to around about an hour and I'm pretty sure we're over that already, I just wanted to quickly go over my main takeaway from that interview. And it would definitely be around Richard's mindset and how that changed over time. He mentioned towards the start of his investing career that he had the mindset of initially going to "I can't."
But noted that overtime, it changed to the mindset of, "How can I? And I think this is a really powerful tool to implement, especially when in property or just in general in life. Richard also mentioned that when his mindset changed and he started to implement the, "How can I?" He would find that solutions to the problem would come to him, whether it be in the middle of the night, as he mentioned, all the type of people he was looking for came to him. Definitely, that was my main takeaway.
And I'm sure everyone had their own takeaway, I hope everyone had their own takeaway. And I'm pretty sure you're all raring to go after listening to what is in my opinion, quite a motivating story. Anyway, I just wanted to highlight that as I think it's a crucial part of both self development and business development, as always the show notes will be over on the website, thepropertyvoice.net, along with links to Stephanie's game-changer series that I would definitely check out. If you want to reach out to Richard, then you can email him @podcastatthepropertyvoice.net, or if you have any questions for me, then it's Martin at the proxyvoice.net. So a bit of a different format today, but hope you enjoyed it anyway. And I hope you were able to take away at least one thing that will help you move forward with whatever you're doing right now. That having been said, we'll see you on the next episode.
Thank you for listening today. Now head over to thepropertyvoice.net for more inspirational content and get updates through our mailing list. Join us next time on The Property Voice Podcast. And if you enjoyed the show, please don't forget to rate us on iTunes.
That's all from me this week, remember if you want to talk about anything from today’s show, or just talk property investing more generally, email me at podcast@thepropertyvoice.net, I would be happy to hear from you! The show notes can be found at our website www.thepropertyvoice.net
Thanks very much for listening again this week, so all that left to say is ciao ciao!