This is the second part of a panel discussion around finding funds, our second property core skill.
Join me, Bronwen Vearncombe, Nana Piesie, Dominick Hardy, Anthony Boyce along with a cameo appearance from Sergio Grande, as we talk this week about alternative finance and a foray into creative finance as well.
I then wrap up the common themes, so join us to learn more....
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Transcription of the show
This is the second part of a panel discussion around finding funds, our second property core skill.
Join me, Bronwen Vearncombe, Nana Piesie, Dominick Hardy, Anthony Boyce along with a cameo appearance from Sergio Grande, as we talk this week about alternative finance and a foray into creative finance as well.
I then wrap up the common themes, so join us to learn more....
Property Chatter
Welcome to the property voice podcast helping you to navigate safely through the world of property investing, get the lowdown and updates, insights, and outcomes on all matters property with a splash of entertainment along the way, the property voice or voice to trust among the crowd. Now, let's get started with your host, Richard Brown.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the property voice podcast. My name is Richard Brown. And as always, it's a pleasure to have you join me on the show again today. And today is part two of our panel discussion around finding funds. So last week, I was joined on the panel by Bronwyn Vern come, Nana, PRC, Anthony boys, Dominic Hardy, and we had a special Well, this week, you actually going to hear a special guest appearance from Sergio Grande. And so we were having this conversation, this panel discussion around finance, we were working through the sequence of institutional finance, or sometimes more traditional finance, we drifted into alternative financing. And this week, we take alternative financing on to the next level and also start to talk about creative financing. So just a quick recap on that traditional or institutional finances, the banks and the high street lenders and the people that you often would find in the Yellow Pages, or the Google, of the Google, or Google. And alternative finance is still looks and feels like finance, but comes from an alternative channel, an alternative source. So it could be friends and family members, for example, it could be a crowdfunding, crowdfunding platform. That's alternative finance. And then the third broad category is, is something that mimics financing but isn't financing and uses contractual structures to achieve a similar result. So we'll talk about that later. But things like exchange relay completion, lease or land options, rent or rent even would be examples of that. So we're going to go into the conversation, and I'll come back, and I'll summarize in a minute, but we'll pick up the conversation right now.
And then the second thing is he, Brahman, you just said in particular, you don't ask people for money. I think a few people just said, We don't ask people for money. And because you know, it can feel a bit dirty, can't it? You know, and but it should happen naturally, you know, almost what, how have you found that so two sides that I guess, the value and service element that's been spoken about, and also the idea of sort of how to approach people and interest then perhaps in collaborating, and then putting their money into our projects. And now that we haven't heard from you for a while, so why don't you kick us off?
Yeah. So from my end, the investor that, that I mentioned about the profit split, and then the new loan agreement that we have, he's very knowledgeable about, like finance and inflation, etc, investing. So he knows that he and he really is like, risk-averse. So he likes to spread his eggs. So he was really straightforward. He just saw that we were me. And my fiance was very into this property and going to the UK regularly. And he started to ask a question, how does it work? And, you know, seeing that we're taking it seriously. And then he was like, okay, but is there any chance that I like an investor with you guys? Or? And we were like, Yeah, of course. And then, you know, so it came naturally. While I remember in the beginning, after we have like, taking the course we were like, fire it up, and this and all of this other people's money. So we were like, going and pitching, you know, like, yeah, it's better than a bank. It's better than bank and people were like, like, you know, you're too, Sally, Sally. So, yeah, that I think that's the way to do it to just show them what you do. And then they will obviously come by the self-building and they will come. Yeah, actually, Sergio was gonna join us on this call today. And he had another commitment. And so he wasn't able to, but he did actually give me a little voice clip. I was gonna actually play it for you, and then see, see what you think about it. In fact, I'm going to do that if you bear if you'll indulge me, and hopefully, it will come out. So give me a thumbs up if you can hear this.
Hi, everyone. It's Sergio here speaking. As a way of introduction, I have been a property investor for just under a year. I have an HMO property, Liverpool. And I'm now looking at increasing my private funds, which is obviously related to the conversation that's happening today. And I just wanted to share quickly my strategy, which has been to mention what I'm doing to the people around me. And in return, I like to call it throwing pebbles, people, obviously, in a gentle wave. And this is proven quite successful. So far, I have almost secured 100,000 pounds from two people. And I'm talking to another three more people to secure for the 50,000 pounds. And it's literally just been talking about what I do the things I have done with my HMO property in the last year, and the things I'm looking to do. And yeah, it's been difficult, because you don't really know how to approach it at first. But the more you talk about it, the easier it gets, and the more natural it comes out. Which obviously, gives a lot more confidence to people. I never asked for money. I just talk about the things that I do, which seem to be working. So yeah, that's a little bit of an insight in the approach I've taken. It works well so far. And I hope it can work for you as well. Because lack so I wanted to share that because I thought it was appropriate at this point. And I saw a lot of nodding going on. Do you resonate with a lot with Sergio was saying there and winning?
Yeah, definitely. I think, yes. I think what Nana and Braun said as well, it's not about asking for money. So it's just about telling people what you do, and perhaps what you can offer them. So I think my JV partner from back in 2019, one of his goals was to invest in property, and we just kind of was speaking. So obviously, that was what I was doing at the time. And it just naturally came up that my property together is never about how much money we got. It's just that was actually one of his goals for the year. So it was just, you know, worked out well by just by telling people what to do.
And our hour, just want to plug in on that, too. And especially today's age, you know, with social media, it's really easy to people to follow you. And if you just document your journey, and that's what we are doing me and Emily, we just documenting, and people reach out just coming like,
yeah, it's interesting Bronwyn, you and I were having a pre-chat when we started talking most about the cat. Two is the capital stack. And this has taken us a little bit in that direction. But I saw you nodding away. So I'm sure you've got a few perhaps wanting to add there.
Well, you know, I think the capital stack was all about how do you use different elements in your property journey. One was knowledge on it. There's quite a few here I've written some of them down the social media, you know, we've just said Nana talk about the big thing for me was human capital was working with other people and making sure that I could work with experts, which would save me time. And whilst I might give some of my profit away, it's going to be a lot quicker in the long run, for me to work with people who perhaps, you know, a one or 10 steps ahead of me. So So I've worked a lot with, with other people to show me what to do, but also to joint venture with me. So hence the builder, the conversion, six flats, that was actually the person that did the conversion that he was part of the JV. So rather than we pay him on a contractual basis, you know, come in and do it, I can look over your shoulder, but actually get a share of the profits. Now you have to be careful there because you've got to balance the profit bit a bit. But you know, if they know what they're doing, they're going, they'll be telling you Well, you know, I'd be happy with an X percent share or whatever it might be. But you know, if you've got, if you if you're building your network, and you find these people and you resonate with them, and you've got similar values, when actually it's quite easy to start working with them, but you've got to do your due diligence on them. Because, you know, you can't just meet them and have a couple of meetings and then off we go. You've got to have a signed agreement, you've got to be, you know, you've got to know that if something goes wrong in this project. And things do get that, you know, you'll be able to work it out together and that, you know, if there was Heaven forbid a loss situation that that that also you know, you'll be able to talk it Through. So, so yeah, working with other people experts is really important. I'm in Africa at the moment, I've been volunteering in Namibia for seven months, I've been doing what I love what I'm passionate about. And the important thing is, is how do I set up my systems and my people, that means they can manage my properties, and even build houses for me while I'm away. And that's, you know, that's not easy. But, you know, over a long period of time, we've been able to establish that and make it work for us.
Again, somebody could point in just dwell on a one really big one, which, you know, doesn't often get spoken about, I think it's about, you know, working with other people and correctly documenting, you know, what, what the roles relationship and the returns expectations actually are? I think about equally earlier, you know, the point was made about, you know, you can't just pitch someone to work with you on a joint venture basis, joint venture being this degree of risk in return. It's not necessarily a fixed return, it could be a variable return, whether it's a profit share, or something like that. You can't just walk up to someone and pitch them there are rules and regulations, that the Financial Conduct Authority lays down and they're laid down to protect, you know, everyday investors, they call them retail investors, everyday investors who are not so you know, savvy or sophisticated around the sort of structure. So, get familiar with the rules, I've written a little bit about that in various places. I'm not this isn't a plug for the book, it's just a written about it, I'm happy to share those links, but look up the FCA ps 13. Three, and you will know who you can pitch under what circumstances there. But if it's a fixed-rate loan basis that you usually good to go, if it's a variable profit basis, then you need to check that that person is able to invest in that way to someone looking to contribute to that part to see if you're nodding, okay. And then what are the from an agreement points of view, again, even if it's your best friend, even if it's, you know, a family member, always, always, always put the thing in writing. Again, that's, that's just a really good sensible thing to do. Because people's perspectives of things can be different. people's relationships can change over time. And people's circumstances definitely change as well. And, you know, the project could kind of go into a different direction, perhaps, to what you were imagining, so just dwell on that factor, just want to get it out.
And let me just add a little bit, that doesn't need to be anything hugely complicated, either, you know, it can be bullet points, you know, we call it heads of terms, you know, just put some bullet points down, this is what I think we're agreeing. This is me, this is us, you know, anything else you want to add, let's make sure that we're comfortable with it. And then you sign it, you know, it doesn't have to be massively complicated. On a loan basis, in my opinion, anyway, my experience.
No, no, absolutely. Yeah, I think it just needs to be written. That's the main thing. So if you've got a napkin, and you're sat in a bar, write it down on a napkin, and you know, you're good to go, I'm sure. But an exchange of emails also counts. So that's cool. So where I'm just thinking about where we are with the timings and you know, we've spent a bit of time on the alternative, I could probably talk all day to you guys. But um, and Nana sent me a private message. And he's saying, Can we start talking about things like rent to rent? And basically, yes, you can Nana because we want to talk about creative financing. And the rent to rent is very much in the category of creative financing. So let's just, you know, what is people's experience in terms of creative financing? So what I mean is using things like commercial contractual arrangements, which mimic or mirror financing, but it isn't a traditional loan agreement isn't necessarily coming through that kind of source. Anybody got that kind of experience they want to share? And then a Come on, can you want to talk about renter and start us off?
Okay, so we, we've been mainly very heavy on the rent. So before the pandemic, we had guaranteed rent. And then on the new projects that we took on, we and JV partners that we're having in swanzey spoke with the landlord and said, instead of we're giving you a guaranteed rent, because it's uncertain times now with COVID and etc. Let's do a profit split. So that's what we negotiate with the landlord. So if it was empty, we didn't lose any money, if it was full wall gain on it. So yeah, that's what's Well, well, just to clarify. So rental rent is where you actually would rent from a property owner. And then you would sublease effectively or sublet to people occupying the property. Usually it works best, where you can, you know, have a multilateral HMO sell arrangement or perhaps serviced accommodation, where you're going into high yield sorts of models. I've seen it work on single leg type of properties, but usually, the margin between what you payout and what you're collecting isn't always what it you know, it needs to be to make enough money. But that's just to put it out there, what is rent, but you've basically got a stage further and saying that you're going to almost have some sort of performance-related measure there. So you'll pay nothing if I guess it was nothing if the property is empty, but you use your profit share with the property owner if, if it's occupied, is that right? Exactly. You explain it so good, Richard. Well, I've made it my business to now because I just bought capital living in London, and that's their business model. So I kind of had to brush up and get familiar with the model a bit more than I probably was before. So there we go. And anybody else done any other types of, or even restaurant or creative types of structures, which mimic financing?
I mean, we've got a few delayed completion sorts of deals in the pipeline, I guess. It's an option, isn't it? I guess your promise promising to buy something in the future once planning gain is achieved? At well, set the price and what you're hoping for? Or you're betting on I guess the price going up once you've gained planning, really? So yeah, we've done that on a few commercial conversions. Again, that helps when you come to, the loaning stage for the development, financial GDV. Once you've got planning on, on a property goes up, so you're able to borrow more against it. And then a bigger thing we've gotten, I've ever heard of a promotional agreement? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So again, it's a similar concept, it's, we've set an option price, but during that time, we're able to promote the site to various hopeful, or hopefully, buyers, try and gain planning and basically increase the price of the site. And everybody takes a constant uplift at that point. So that's a while hopefully, that'd be a very nice way for the owner to benefit and, and ourselves as well. They're just through the power of the network, I guess.
Yeah, it's interesting, because you basically outlined three different contractual arrangements around the idea of uplifting the value of a property primarily. And what's your day job again? Yeah. So you're involved in, in architecture, and probably get involved in Planning Commission's as well, right. So exchange, delay completion, just so you know, we're, you know, explaining the terminology. You know, typically, you'll have the same day, you know, exchange and completion, or perhaps one or two-week gap, that's kind of market norms generally, but we guess with the exchange, you know, a delayed completion, it will be an extended period of time, you know, typically months, you know, between the exchange and the actual legal completion, which allow you see the thing there that is you contractually committed, okay? Once you've exchanged contracts, whereas if you take a land option or purchase option, you have a right to buy that property, but not the obligation. So the obligation is with an exchange or delay completion, not with the option. So I'm just explaining some of the terminologies. And you talked about the performance contract. Some people might call that an assisted sale. It's basically it's an agency type of arrangement, where you wouldn't necessarily step into the ownership, legal chain of that particular property as well. So you kind of you fill the house there, and today with all three of those particular contractual arrangements, but the point being, there's a variation, which is sort of when you talked about performance as a conditional exchange as well, that you can have, so you can have an exchange with delay Completion with a time-delayed, you can also have an exchange with delay completion based on a certain thing happening, such as gaining planning permission. So that can de-risk your investment or at least not necessarily de risk if you've got a contractual commitment, but you can certainly avoid some of the financing costs, for example. And, you know, that comes into play. So yeah, no, for not there. Who can be that Oh, can check that one? One day I can think of Richard which you probably know all about because you helped us with it. So it's exchanged with delayed completion as well. And the seller also loaned us I think, 25,000 to help with the refurb work. And I think it was interest-free as well. So that was from the embroidery button. So yes, that was a very good deal. So we had to, obviously, pay for less than the refurb work ourselves and then refinance.
Yeah. And you know, just to dwell on that quickly, I think I am familiar with it. You're right. And so apart from exchanges, delay completion, which was, you know, contract favorable, the there was an interest-free loan, the what was really important, there were two things. One is the circumstances that the seller found themselves in, they had a bit of a bind, really, and they had this sort of property, which couldn't be sold to a homeowner because it had an on-suite and a lounge. And it couldn't really be an HMO, because he had no communal space. So they were stuck with this property. And unfortunately, our packages left them in that place. And they didn't, you know, it was hard for him to go either way. So they needed someone to come and sort of work with them, who knew how to get them out of that particular hole. And that's kind of what you and I did dominate, because, eventually, but equally, that particular owner was a finance director, in a large company. And anybody who knows anything about finance directors in large companies knows that they're pretty sophisticated. You know, they know they're aware of numbers, so we could talk to him about what was involved, and he understood the concepts. So think, you know, the person on the other side, it's really handy if they can kind of enter in that place. So they understand it better. I think it was a little old lady, you know, it might have been, I wouldn't have actually pitched it, frankly. Because, you know, I'm not diminishing any little old ladies. But I'm just saying that, you know, if it was a pension, it was the only property and she just wanted to move out to be closer to her kids or something. Maybe it's not the right sort of thing to pitch, maybe not. So the person that you're dealing with is also important. Come on, Bronwyn Are you dying to speak, let's bring you back into the conversation.
Like I can speak for hours. But anyway. So yeah, looking at alternative things, you've spoken by about quite a few you've mentioned purchase lease options, that's one of my favorites when it works in the right way. And as you said, it's about all about the other person, this is not about, I'm trying to find a purchase lease option, this is more about spotting the opportunity when it arises. So the purchase lease option is, is where you can give the owner a return on their money now, so renting it for a period of time, with the potential to buy, you don't have to, but you have the option to buy. And you usually agree on what that price is, when you set that agreement. Now, it's a bit complicated, it's worth getting a bit of education around this subject if you do it, but when it works, it's fantastic. And I've done that a couple of times on sort of larger properties. And then I've done a couple of long leases. So where the owner doesn't want to sell it, but they're happy to rent it, and then you think Well, okay, if I'm not going to end up owning it, then I, I don't want to spend a huge amount of money doing it up. And meaning that the money I put into the property then is not going to be of value to me. So I would, I would then prefer to lease it for a much longer period. So a typical purchase lease option might be five years. But for me, if I'm if I want a property, and they don't want to sell it to me, but I still think it's going to work, then I'll do it for a long lease up to 12 years. So you know, it doesn't really matter. I think it's really about understanding what the owner wants and needs and seeing if you can structure something that will work for both of us. And it's given take with some of these agreements, I think,
yeah, it's interesting with the long lease, don't ever come across a like something like a 12-year lease that's interesting. That was registered or recorded on the land registry?
Yes, yes, it's registered. There are lots of ins and outs. So, you know, break clauses and things like that, it's really important. So you've got to get a really good solicitor who understands leases, you've also got to get the owner to have a really good solicitor who understands leases. And that's the tricky thing. Because, you know, if they if they're not so knowledgeable about this, then it can cause a few problems. But I've certainly been able to take over a property whilst we still negotiated that. So if you know, if you get along with the person and you know, they want to work with you, you can work with the lawyers over a period of time and make it work. But yeah, it gives me the comfort that it's worth me investing money because I'll get the return on it.
So that's, I think, I was surmising what, what the benefit would be and that means it's a halfway house, isn't it, you know, so to speak, you can get a long term commitment that you've got control over that property that you can use it and then if you need to spend some money, you know, to perhaps you know, you repurpose it or whatever to your own needs for whatever purposes that was Then you can, you've got some justification, maybe have 710 12 years to get a return on your, or get payback.
But if they can also, of course, then decide that they would like to sell it to you. So, I think, you know, over a period of time, so what I've got in mind, I think five years now, you know, when we were getting on very well, and, you know, we're understanding each other, because, you know, there's, there's often conversations you have to have, you know, because they're responsible for a certain proportion of the work in terms of the externals and we, we determine what we do internally, you've got, you've got to keep those conversations going. And if you end up getting on and that their circumstances change, they may well change their mind. So, you know, you hope, if it's working for all of you that you can make it easy for them and buy it at some point in the future. So, so I think it's a good strategy. Yeah. But, you know, we've come across it over a period of time, as we've, as we've been learning,
now that I'm a seventh and Well, the thing is, is, you know, as we learn, as we grow, we do, you know, take home more, it's, you know, there isn't, you know, kind of pie 50 odd strategies overnight, and we might not ever want to apply 50 strategies, either. So, I think, you know, it's, for me, it's about using the right tool for the right job. And sometimes the, you know, as Anthony was kind of saying, you know, he's got three tools for the planning job that he mentioned, he probably got more, but, you know, is it delay completion is a performance, you know, contract for what was the other one forgotten. But yeah, the one in the middle, you know, so it's basically just getting the right tool, which is really the right financing solution for the right job at hand. And, you know, not over-engineering it and making it overly complex. And I think, you know, Brahmins just forget what you said there, but I call it the Trojan horse technique. So if you can, you know, step into an arrangement, whether that's through some sort of lease arrangement, but really quite like to buy that property, you don't necessarily need to go for the kill, so to speak with the first you know, transaction, you can get to know one another, and build a relationship. And then over time, perhaps go for the Well, maybe you'd like to sell this to me and you know, agree on a price, or maybe you'd like to give me an option it as well, as, you know, the return there. So I think having conversations with people is really the key there, when it comes to this alternative space, and the creative space. You know, our guys keep talking for hours, literally. And unfortunately, the listeners might not really get the, you know, there might be losing us at this point. So it might be a cue for a follow-up. But I think probably in the interest of time for the podcast, this time maybe starts to draw a bit of a close, and maybe if you start thinking about whether you've got any top tips, or any major, you know, don't pitfalls, etc, now's the time to sort of bringing them out as we sort of draw a little bit of a close to this particular episode.
So there's one thing that hasn't come up in the conversation on this occasion, and I, I think it might be worth mentioning that I've been able to borrow from people's pension funds now that we called sips or sasses. SAS is a small self-administered scheme. And asset there's a self-invested pension plan. Now, depending on that, that person's pension advice, it's absolutely possible for them to lend to you as an investor's words, but with the right paperwork in place. So that's, that's always an interesting thing. I'm always happy to chat with people outside of this. I'm not a pensions advisor, I'm not giving anyone any advice. But I found this early on, that it opened my eyes up, you know, when someone said, Oh, I'd like to invest with you. But it's going to be through my CIP. And I'm like, oh, how do you do that, then? So yeah, happy to share my knowledge on that. It's, it's often, you know, people worry about it. But there's a lot of investors out there with pensions, that they want to get a good return on.
Really good tech. And I think, you know, you probably know this, but I heard a stat that the average fund value of a SAS recently, according to a survey by a well-known SAS provider, or something, was about 300,000 pounds. So, you know, that was the value of the pension part. And often, people think, well, I can't do anything with that I can't touch into our mix. 55 years old, possibly a little bit longer, but actually, you can still utilize it for your benefit. And by the way, if you're interested in working with someone and looking over their shoulder, it's really a way of doing that. But again, I take what you're saying wrong. And there's a lot of things we're talking about today. This is not financial advice, you know, everyone needs to get seek their own financial advisor, think we've kind of covered ourselves with disclaimers with that sort of thing. So but it's a really good one about the SAS and the CIP. And I'm glad you remember what they stood for as well. So that was really handy. So, and Cindy and Dominic, you're off-mic. So who's got a tip or watch out for?
Well, in terms of tips, I was just going to say that get probably has more funds around you than you think, like savings, ISIS shares, or even equity in your own property that you could, you know, refinance, to actually access that capital, and then use that to invest. And then going further than that, you know, you have, obviously family, friends, and colleagues that we've spoken about before. Although, again, another tip, obviously, is not just to go around asking people for money, more to probably tell people what you do and what you can offer them, and then see if they're interested in actually investing with you.
Yeah, I'd love to dive into that. But more particularly, you've got more money around you than you perhaps realize and don't refer to being your own bank. You know, a lot of people do patients a good example, people have worked for a long time and they've got old pensions will be anything they can access that will ease actually possible. contracts. Right, you so you just do
well, just on that I do have an outward-facing pension, which I actually didn't realize until a while ago, and I've been trying to move that over to assess. So it's taking a little bit of time. But it's that's one of my aims as well to get into the assessment. And I can access that to the best further.
Yeah, I think I'm four months and counting with my pension transfer to my SAS, but you know, it's worth it in the end. Good one. Thanks, Dominic. Then Anthony bated breath.
Yeah, well, I think this ties in with your book, probably Richard, but educate yourself in what is possible, with different strategies and different ways of financing things and how to structure deals, because all of a sudden, the deals get bigger, and they don't cost you that much more. So just been able to have a conversation with, you know, commercial property owners and things like that. They are a lot more open, to these creative deals. So yeah, just educate yourself and have a conversation with people when you're doing you enjoy early,
educate, have a conversation couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, the level of sophistication with people and commercial properties is likely to be higher. So you might fall on, you know, more fertile ground by doing that, for sure. So yeah, thanks for plugging the book as well. By the way, July run about that sort of time, you might be able to get a copy of The Complete Guide to property finance. But before we overkilled my plugs on books and things, Nana Come on, you're you they're writing.
So I will actually press on social media, that's really, really important in this day and age. So you should, I think you should start building your brand. So if you build a brand, people will be like, into that brand and know who you are. And yeah, build your online presence. That's my take
some really important tip as well, I think, you know, if you're going to be, let's say, a professional investor, or developer and in it for the long term, and perhaps doing larger, more complex deals, where you do need to raise significant funding, and everybody runs out funds, eventually, no matter how deep your pockets are, then, you know, half building authority, building a brand presence, you know, having a network are all really valuable. And things are such an important key point. And Funny enough, I know, nearly all of the people on this panel are very good at that. That type of thing. We've got an extra guest who actually might bring her into the conversation in a minute people and not be able to watch this don't know what I'm talking about. But we've got a three-year-old who's joined, joining the conversation wants to join the conversation. But equally, I think, you know, brand social media, things like you know, leading a networking group or publishing a book, you know, is not necessarily for everyone. But you could still have a conversation with you know, someone in your network who you've worked with a family member, a friend, and just tell people what you did so, and sooner or later, as Sergio says, not throw pebbles at people, but throwing pebbles into it or throwing pebbles into a lake and wash the report. That's kind of the analogy there. Well, that was interesting, I found is really what was really interesting is that some of the similarities that people were coming out and people on the panel were coming out with and you know, one of the things that we started off in part two was don't ask for money. seems weird, doesn't it? We were going looking For the money, when I say looking for money, we're looking for funding for our viable property investments and developments. So it's not a dirty thing. It's just a natural process. It's just like a business needs investment to, you know, undertake its business activities. And it's the same with property. But to go out and just ask people for money, it's not very elegant, normally pushes people away. I think it was Nana who said, it sounds a bit salesy, and you know, it just was not the done thing, really. So I think just showing and telling people what you do, and often people will come and ask you questions show interest in you. So just let it happen naturally, have conversations with potential investors, and it will come. And I shared the clip from Sergio. I'm glad that came out. Actually, I was a bit nervous at the time, because I've never done anything like that before. So I just played this What's up, you know, audio clip, and the panelists could actually hear it. So that was great. They actually talked about throwing pebbles at people, I think he kind of got the analogy, we were speaking about a little bit mixed up. But hopefully, that was clarified by the end, what I'm what I normally say is thrown little pebbles into a lake. And normally you see a ripple effect. And you just don't know where the ripples going to lead to. And that's what that comment was all about. And, of course, you know, any type of collaboration, in fact, a collaboration could be with an investor could be with an owner. And by the way, an owner could be your next investor. So have conversations with people just talk really, and I think it does matter about the person's circumstances about their level of commercial acumen if you like. And, you know, I think it was Anthony, who was saying that often, you know, corporate, so commercial property owners might be more in up for a conversation around some creative structuring. And so that's all about the level of sophistication, savvy that particular into individually is some great tips about you know, documenting your journey, but also documenting the agreement. So there are different types of documentation that come out there, trying to work with experts so that you reduce your risk and you increase, increase the chances of success with your project, and work with people with shared values as well. There were some other things, keep yourself safe. In terms of the regulations, there's a signpost to FCA ps 13. Three is not so exciting, but it is very, very essential. And essentially, what that means is don't pitch investments to people who is not appropriate to pitch them to don't pitch, you know, joint ventures to people who are not sophisticated or high net worth investors. In other words, then we started to talk about some of the alternatives, so not even alternative creative financing structures. And I just did a quick note, as we were rattling through them, we had we covered rent to rent exchange with delay, Completion, conditional completion, land and purchase options, promotional agreements of vendor loan, a purchase lease option, a long lease. And later on, we started to talk about investing through pension funds, such as SAS sip and crystallizing old pensions, and think I've covered most of it. No, in fact, Dominic threw a few more in love, just looking at my own nose dominate for a few more later on saying, you know, you have more funds around you than you think you have things like stocks and shares or your ICER funds, you might have tied up in your own company, which you can access funds or equity, this tied up in property, whether it's your own home, or investment properties, friends and families around you. And acting as being your own bank, were all mentioned as well. So the key was about having conversations, being natural about it, documenting and showcasing what you do. And, you know, strong networking, perhaps building authority and brand through publications and social media presence, and throwing pebbles at people, or rather throwing pebbles into a lake and just seeing what happens. So hopefully, you've enjoyed that panel discussion over the last couple of weeks. Clearly, there's so much we could cover. And we had to focus on a few of those. But you've got some insights from the panel about what they're doing, and a number from me as well. And I hope this has been useful in terms of this property core skill. So to summarize the show notes for today's episode, and indeed, last week's episode will be over the website, the property voice.net. Indeed, all of the links to panelists will be in the show notes as well. So if you'd like to reach out to them and connect with them, I'll be tagging them on social media as well. So if you follow me on social media, you'll probably see a few tags for some of our guests. So by all means hello, and reach out to them. I'm sure they look forward to hearing from you. But I guess, for now, all that remains to be said is thank you very much for listening again this week, and until next time, on The property boys podcast.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai